In this episode, Michael Lester chats with Gordon Noble, research director at the Institute for Sustainable Futures (UTS) and specialist in sustainable finance. They discuss the environmental and governance challenges of data centers—central infrastructure for AI, cloud, and the digital economy. Topics include energy and water intensity, the rapid growth projected to US$7 trillion by 2035, Australia's role as a regional hub with hundreds of centers, and the need for transparent governance to curb phantom land speculation and mask carbon footprints. The conversation explores policy, investment, and market implications for both large enterprises and SMEs as data centers become a new asset class.